[müzik]

<v Kurt>And now on with the podcast.

<v Kurt>Yeah, I think we're at 354, 55, somewhere in there right now.

<v Kurt>So it's a lot.

<v Kurt>It's been, you know, for a while, when we thought COVID was going to be that two, three week thing,

<v Kurt>we started doing like five a week because we were talking to people every week about what was going on.

<v Kurt>And then after about a month of that, we realized, oh, this isn't going to be a three week thing.

<v Kurt>And we went back to the weekly schedule.

<v Kurt>So that was a little bit, but there was a big, a big push back in early 2020, then

<v Kurt>that we ended up having a whole lot more episodes.

<v Kurt>So that was part of it.

<v Kurt>Yeah.

<v Kurt>At this point you're doing week weekly.

<v Kurt>We're doing weekly.

<v Kurt>Yep.

<v Kurt>Yeah.

<v Kurt>Yeah.

<v Kurt>Gotcha.

<v Kurt>Thrown in an extra one every now and then, but mostly just weekly.

<v Kurt>Yeah.

<v Kurt>Yeah.

<v Craig>Neat.

<v Craig>Neat.

<v Craig>Cool.

<v Craig>I mean, I think we'll get started in just a minute.

<v Craig>I just want to share like in this show, like, um, so, so first of all, like

<v Craig>I'm the founder of Cast Us, we're a podcast hosting platform like a

<v Craig>Libsyn or a blueberry that you might use.

<v Craig>And, and the goal of this show really is to, well, one, like it's, it's

<v Kurt>awesome for me to talk to podcasters.

<v Kurt>So I've been doing this a while, like we have 280 episodes of my podcast.

<v Craig>So not, not quite as many, but it's been doing it a long time.

<v Craig>And then like, it's really healthy for me to stay like chatting with

<v Kurt>podcasters about what they're doing.

<v Kurt>Uh, and, and to keep learning, cause like you, you, you do something for a

<v Kurt>while and you think, you know, and you don't.

<v Kurt>So, so first of all, it's like, just love talking to folks and see like what, what

<v Kurt>they're doing and what's working and what's not.

<v Kurt>And then like we record this and it's helpful for everyone else, but, but really

<v Kurt>it's just like an educational experience.

<v Kurt>It's one of the things that Tim, Tim, my cohost and me talk about, right.

<v Kurt>It's like, ah, we, we just being able to, to do this and to talk to the

<v Kurt>people that we get to talk to.

<v Kurt>It's like a Nobel laureates wouldn't just pick up the phone and say, Hey, sure.

<v Kurt>I'll spend an hour with you just talking unless we had a podcast, you know,

<v Kurt>which they do.

<v Kurt>And that's just, it's an, it's an amazing opportunity to just talk and learn.

<v Kurt>And I just love that part.

<v Kurt>So.

<v Kurt>Yeah, neat.

<v Kurt>Let's dive into that.

<v Kurt>Like, how do you approach guests?

<v Kurt>Right.

<v Kurt>Because it's you and a cohost plus the guests, like that's a lot of logistics.

<v Kurt>A lot of folks have one or the other.

<v Kurt>Do you find it?

<v Kurt>And you've done so many episodes.

<v Kurt>Like, do you find all of the logistics difficult,

<v Kurt>or do you all have a system down for it now?

<v Kurt>- The logistics are always never easy, for the most part.

<v Kurt>There's always scheduling difficulties.

<v Kurt>We try to do, you know, our recording on Friday mornings.

<v Kurt>We try to get into a routine and have that going,

<v Kurt>and so we schedule those in advance,

<v Kurt>but there are always the outliers.

<v Kurt>There's always the changing in schedules.

<v Kurt>There's always the confusion.

<v Kurt>So there's always something that goes on that you just

<v Kurt>have to remain flexible and you have to be able to accommodate

<v Kurt>difference.

<v Kurt>Again, interviewing people around the globe,

<v Kurt>we're talking to somebody next week from Brisbane, Australia.

<v Kurt>So we're, all right, so how are we

<v Kurt>going to do the time schedules?

<v Kurt>All right, so–

<v Kurt>He's getting up early.

<v Kurt>He's a day ahead.

<v Kurt>So all of those factors are coming to play.

<v Kurt>And I don't think that we have a great, wonderful process for it.

<v Kurt>I think it's probably the process that most people do.

<v Kurt>It's kind of a back and forth.

<v Kurt>And we have a scheduling email system that we send people to.

<v Kurt>But sometimes we got to work outside of that, too.

<v Kurt>Yeah.

<v Kurt>How about– you mentioned Nobel laureates and high profile people.

<v Kurt>I mean, I knew some of the people on your site,

<v Kurt>and I'm not in that space.

<v Kurt>How does the pitch go?

<v Kurt>Like, hey, do you want to come on our podcast

<v Kurt>and talk about this thing?

<v Kurt>Like, do you have a couple of topics

<v Kurt>that you pitch to them?

<v Kurt>Or like, what– because I think that's something

<v Kurt>that folks struggle with, is like, hey,

<v Kurt>I want to have this person on.

<v Kurt>What does that look like?

<v Kurt>Yeah, we have a different approach depending on people.

<v Kurt>So we're approached a lot ourselves.

<v Kurt>But obviously, there's people that we want to go after,

<v Kurt>and to try to get on the show that we think

<v Kurt>are going to be really good guests.

<v Kurt>Most of the time, again, we're talking

<v Kurt>with behavioral scientists, researchers, Nobel laureates,

<v Kurt>as you said.

<v Kurt>We've gotten a couple of those.

<v Kurt>High profile people that have best-selling books

<v Kurt>and various different things in the topic areas that we want.

<v Kurt>So when we do this, we try to bring

<v Kurt>some of the behavioral science that we talk about on the show

<v Kurt>into that.

<v Kurt>So when we craft an email, different pieces,

<v Kurt>obviously, like everybody, if we have a warm introduction,

<v Kurt>that's much better than a cold kind of calling.

<v Kurt>So if there's anybody that knows, we often ask our guests,

<v Kurt>hey, who do you think would be a good guest?

<v Kurt>And oftentimes, they'll lead us down a really nice path.

<v Kurt>And that's always a much easier sell to get people back on,

<v Kurt>particularly if they do the introduction

<v Kurt>and talk about how much fun they had with us

<v Kurt>in various different pieces.

<v Kurt>But two, one of the things is, as you mentioned,

<v Kurt>we don't necessarily pitch a topic

<v Kurt>unless we know they have a book or something coming out.

<v Kurt>Most of the time, the really top tier ones

<v Kurt>aren't necessarily that.

<v Kurt>But we will talk about their research.

<v Kurt>So we'll talk about how we have been fans of their research

<v Kurt>and maybe bring in some very specific elements around that

<v Kurt>to say, hey, this paper from 2006

<v Kurt>really inspired us to think about things

<v Kurt>in a different way.

<v Kurt>We'd love to talk to you about that or anything else.

<v Kurt>And then the other part that we do is we do social proof.

<v Kurt>And we talk about the–

<v Kurt>we mention, all right, we've won awards.

<v Kurt>We mentioned that it's a casual, fun thing,

<v Kurt>but we also get into, and we've had

<v Kurt>these other guests on the show.

<v Kurt>And as you said, you hopefully recognize some people,

<v Kurt>and you're not in the space.

<v Kurt>People who are in the space will definitely

<v Kurt>recognize those names.

<v Kurt>And so, oh, that will be a good piece on this.

<v Kurt>So that's the process that we use.

<v Kurt>And again, we alter that based upon personalities.

<v Kurt>And if we know something about them, so those, that's what we do.

<v Kurt>Yeah.

<v Kurt>I mean, I'm sure it's changed a lot in the kind of years since you've been doing it.

<v Kurt>Right.

<v Kurt>Do you find it easier to get people on now that you have like a good

<v Kurt>following and kind of name in the space?

<v Kurt>Yeah.

<v Kurt>An anecdote, like I've been podcasting for seven years, but this is a brand new show.

<v Kurt>What this is the ninth episode we've recorded.

<v Kurt>Uh, and it's really hard to get someone on a podcast that hasn't even launched yet.

<v Kurt>Like we just launched it last week.

<v Kurt>Um, as we're recording this, it's super hard, even though we have like a decent

<v Kurt>name in the space and everything.

<v Kurt>Um, so like, yeah, I'll say it gets easier for me.

<v Kurt>It is, it's a lot easier.

<v Kurt>People are searching you out.

<v Kurt>You're getting requests, your name is known.

<v Kurt>So even if you do, hopefully you, there's some brand recognition within that.

<v Kurt>The thing that has amazed me though, and that we learned relatively early on, and

<v Kurt>I don't think this is unique to this, the space that we're in, I think this is just

<v Kurt>a general human thing is that just ask.

<v Kurt>Ask politely, ask nicely.

<v Kurt>But it is amazing how people respond to that.

<v Kurt>We got people that there was no reason they would have ever

<v Kurt>come on– they should have ever come on our podcast when

<v Kurt>we had 20 episodes and a following of a couple hundred.

<v Kurt>And they're like, sure, that sounds great.

<v Kurt>We'll come on.

<v Kurt>And it's just– you go, what?

<v Kurt>Wait, I wasn't expecting that.

<v Kurt>I was thinking you were going to say no.

<v Kurt>All right, now we actually have to do some work.

<v Kurt>But yeah, those are fun.

<v Kurt>Yeah, yeah.

<v Kurt>You mentioned the subject matter that you all–

<v Kurt>that you podcast on.

<v Kurt>It's a lot about behavioral psychology.

<v Kurt>Do you find the subject matter difficult to speak on

<v Kurt>in a podcast audio-only format where people can't see you

<v Kurt>and they might not know you?

<v Kurt>I mean, after 350 episodes, you've

<v Kurt>probably gotten good at it.

<v Kurt>Like, what's that dynamic like?

<v Kurt>No, so it's a long format style.

<v Kurt>And so one of the things that I think plays out really well

<v Kurt>is that both Tim, my co-host, and myself really just–

<v Kurt>we are constantly just wanting to learn.

<v Kurt>And so like you talked earlier, like the ability

<v Kurt>to talk to these people to learn from them.

<v Kurt>And so we're just having conversations.

<v Kurt>And those conversations sometimes

<v Kurt>are directed by, hey, this is a specific topic or book

<v Kurt>that we want to talk about.

<v Kurt>But even then, it's just this idea of, tell me more about

<v Kurt>that, help me understand why you did this, or what this implies,

<v Kurt>or what this means.

<v Kurt>And I think that energy of having that curiosity, I think,

<v Kurt>is a really big piece of this.

<v Kurt>And I think that translates.

<v Kurt>And so from a scientific perspective,

<v Kurt>we're talking about human biases and heuristics

<v Kurt>and some of the neurobiology sometimes.

<v Kurt>And yeah, would it be great to have some diagrams

<v Kurt>and different pieces when you get some of the technical

<v Kurt>aspects?

<v Kurt>That's fantastic.

<v Kurt>But I don't think it's necessary.

<v Kurt>And I think one of the other things that we did–

<v Kurt>and we started this actually right away,

<v Kurt>kind of by happenstance–

<v Kurt>is we do our long format interview, usually

<v Kurt>45 minutes to an hour, sometimes a little bit more,

<v Kurt>sometimes a little bit less.

<v Kurt>But then we, in post-production, Tim and I

<v Kurt>do what we call a grooving session, where we then

<v Kurt>take what we heard.

<v Kurt>So we publish the long format in its entirety.

<v Kurt>And then we go and we groove on it, basically.

<v Kurt>It's behavioral groove.

<v Kurt>So we're grooving on what we learned.

<v Kurt>And so if it gets really technical in the conversation,

<v Kurt>in the grooving session, we'll try

<v Kurt>to break that down into more common language

<v Kurt>and implications.

<v Kurt>And we often talk to people who are maybe

<v Kurt>less on the research side and on application side,

<v Kurt>or as we call accidental behavioral scientists

<v Kurt>sometimes.

<v Kurt>And so then we'll bring in the science part on the back end.

<v Kurt>And so it's kind of a nice way to measure that out,

<v Kurt>So that if it is highly technical in some

<v Kurt>of the nature of what people are talking about,

<v Kurt>we can break that down at the back end or vice versa.

<v Kurt>Yeah, yeah.

<v Kurt>Do you release those as two separate episodes

<v Kurt>or the same episode, just different segments?

<v Kurt>Same episode.

<v Kurt>So there was– so I will take a caveat on that 354 episodes,

<v Kurt>because there was a period–

<v Kurt>You jeered a little.

<v Kurt>There was a period in there where we thought,

<v Kurt>oh, maybe we should just break these up,

<v Kurt>because that would be–

<v Kurt>And so we did that for probably, I think, 10 episodes, 10,

<v Kurt>15 episodes.

<v Kurt>So subtract that off of the top of there,

<v Kurt>because those are really part one and part

<v Kurt>two of the same episode in my mind.

<v Kurt>But yeah, we realized that it actually

<v Kurt>decreased people listening to the second part of it,

<v Kurt>and it wasn't necessarily tied in.

<v Kurt>So we just rolled it back in.

<v Kurt>Yeah, yeah, interesting.

<v Kurt>I think from a, like from a workload, workflow perspective, what you do with

<v Kurt>the grooves is, is sometimes really challenging for customers.

<v Kurt>You know, we have like a professional services arm to, to our business.

<v Kurt>And we have customers that come in and say that they want to do this thing, right?

<v Kurt>They're going to go interview someone for 45 minutes, then take and

<v Kurt>do a 10 minute monologue on it.

<v Kurt>And we always warn them like, okay, if you're going to do that, do not leave

<v Kurt>that chair until you've recorded it right after the interview is over, because

<v Craig>What's going to happen is you got another thing at two 30 and you're going to leave

<v Craig>and you're going to come back six days later when you have to send the episode

<v Craig>to us and you're not going to remember what you just talked about.

<v Craig>Like, have you all you're smiling?

<v Kurt>Like, have you all run into that?

<v Kurt>Or have you just have like a process to where you, your cohost keeps you honest

<v Kurt>and y'all just do that while you're at the sitting, we do a process.

<v Kurt>So we actually don't record right after we don't do the post-production

<v Kurt>immediately afterwards.

<v Kurt>And so we will get the recording.

<v Kurt>We will get a transcript of that.

<v Kurt>We take notes.

<v Kurt>We have our producer research associate who typically listens

<v Kurt>in and is taking notes as well.

<v Kurt>And so then what we do is we will actually

<v Kurt>sit down after the fact, go through the transcript,

<v Kurt>kind of highlight areas that we want to pull out,

<v Kurt>set up an outline.

<v Kurt>So we actually– we're not scripting the grooving session,

<v Kurt>but we're outlining it.

<v Kurt>And then we're bringing in– so again, as I talked about,

<v Kurt>part of it is if there isn't–

<v Kurt>don't get deep into some of the science,

<v Kurt>or even if we get into the science,

<v Kurt>we might bring in tangential science.

<v Kurt>So we will– and again, I'm sounding very technical on here,

<v Kurt>and it's not, but we will often bring in like,

<v Kurt>oh, this references this paper from 2018,

<v Kurt>and that was by these authors, or we'll

<v Kurt>bring in some of those pieces.

<v Kurt>So we'll actually do that research

<v Kurt>prior to doing the grooving session so that we have that

<v Kurt>and we can talk intelligently about that.

<v Kurt>So bringing that piece in.

<v Kurt>So I'm smiling because the amount of–

<v Kurt>it would be so easy.

<v Kurt>It'd be so nice to be able to just do an interview and stop,

<v Kurt>and all you got to do is your intro.

<v Kurt>And wow, that would be–

<v Kurt>oh my gosh, that would be so simple.

<v Kurt>But we are spending hours in the research part of following up

<v Kurt>on doing the grooving session and then the recording of that.

<v Kurt>And again, those are 10 to 20 minutes typically,

<v Kurt>so they're not super long.

<v Kurt>But that's 10 to 20 minutes that can be, um, you know, that a few

<v Kurt>hours every time going into that.

<v Craig>So, yeah.

<v Craig>Yeah.

<v Craig>I think like, that's just good.

<v Craig>I'll say advice slash warning to folks who say like, Hey, I want to do this kind

<v Craig>of special extra segment after an, after an interview, it's like, we say it's just

<v Craig>as much work as doing a full interview.

<v Kurt>So like, uh, it's great.

<v Kurt>It's, it's a huge value to the listeners, I think, but, but, but

<v Kurt>it's, it's just a ton of work.

<v Kurt>So kudos to y'all for pulling it off.

<v Kurt>- Yeah, to that point, I would echo that.

<v Kurt>I think there's a huge value in that,

<v Kurt>but I also that the amount of effort going into that part

<v Kurt>might not be on par,

<v Kurt>but pretty close to the interview itself.

<v Kurt>So you're doubling your workload.

<v Kurt>- Yeah, yeah, interesting.

<v Craig>I'd like to ask about how the podcast

<v Craig>kind of serves you and Tim professionally,

<v Kurt>Like, what's the dynamic there with your kind

<v Kurt>of professional life?

<v Kurt>Like, how does the podcast interact or kind of serve that?

<v Kurt>Yeah, so Tim and I started it– actually, it was just on a–

<v Kurt>we didn't even plan to start it.

<v Kurt>We were doing a meetup locally here in Minnesota, which was–

<v Kurt>we wanted to– Tim had left his job and started a consultancy.

<v Kurt>I had been having a consultancy.

<v Kurt>We both were working in behavioral science.

<v Kurt>So ours is a behavioral design and communication agency.

<v Kurt>And so we bring in behavioral science all the time

<v Kurt>and use that as kind of the lens that we approach work from.

<v Kurt>And we just wanted to build a community within Minneapolis.

<v Kurt>And so we did one of those meetups.

<v Kurt>Second meetup, we had a guest that was going to come speak.

<v Kurt>And we're going, oh, we're going to get 25 people to this.

<v Kurt>And he's a pretty well-known speaker in the field.

<v Kurt>And I had just done a radio interview.

<v Kurt>Tim is a musician, so he has all this musical recording

<v Kurt>equipment.

<v Kurt>And so we came up with this great idea of saying,

<v Kurt>hey, let's just record–

<v Kurt>we'll have our guests come in, because there's

<v Kurt>a monthly meetup.

<v Kurt>Have them come in an hour early.

<v Kurt>We'll record them before talking about what

<v Kurt>they're going to talk about.

<v Kurt>And then we'll just publish that.

<v Kurt>And it'll be once a month.

<v Kurt>It'll be great, easy to do.

<v Kurt>Easy.

<v Kurt>Yeah, easy.

<v Kurt>Here you are.

<v Kurt>And here we are.

<v Kurt>And the meetup, we don't even do anymore.

<v Kurt>But the concept was building that community.

<v Kurt>And so the community for us is still really kind of key

<v Kurt>on this.

<v Kurt>And so again, the fact that I have a podcast,

<v Kurt>Tim has left his consultancy and is now

<v Kurt>the head behavioral scientist at a large bank.

<v Kurt>But still, by having that community,

<v Kurt>we've expanded our reach into who we can tap into,

<v Kurt>the insights, as you said, just kind of learning from this.

<v Kurt>I'm constantly amazed at the insights

<v Kurt>that we're getting from the interviews,

<v Kurt>that it directly applies to the work

<v Kurt>that we're doing with our clients.

<v Kurt>And so I can take what we heard on Friday,

<v Kurt>and Monday we're applying some of those insights

<v Kurt>into some of the work that we do.

<v Kurt>And the context and the other pieces,

<v Kurt>we've gotten connections.

<v Kurt>And some of that has led to work.

<v Kurt>We'd like more of that.

<v Kurt>It isn't a sure thing, but it definitely has led to work.

<v Kurt>But it's led to increased kind of exposure,

<v Kurt>increased kind of feelings of expertise that we have

<v Kurt>and that we can bring to the table.

<v Kurt>Yeah, yeah, interesting.

<v Craig>What advice would you give folks?

<v Craig>Because I think a lot of people are in a similar boat to you,

<v Craig>right?

<v Craig>They have an agency or consultancy.

<v Craig>They're professionals.

<v Craig>They have a podcast or wanted to get a podcast.

<v Craig>But I think a lot of folks are still

<v Craig>kind of scared about, hey, how will I

<v Craig>be perceived in my space if I start a podcast

<v Kurt>I'm talking outside of work about, you know, professional things.

<v Kurt>Like what advice would you give someone in a, in a similar position to where you

<v Kurt>were like, Hey, I want to start this thing.

<v Kurt>I want it to have an impact on my business, but I don't want to sell out.

<v Kurt>I don't want to seem like I'm selling something and like just offer value and

<v Kurt>hopefully like things, things come back to us.

<v Kurt>Yeah.

<v Kurt>And I think to, to the, the latter part is really important because I think for

<v Kurt>Most listeners, if they feel like you're trying to sell them,

<v Kurt>it kind of isn't going to be as impactful.

<v Kurt>Your podcast is going to not be as successful.

<v Kurt>So with that, for the people who are doing it,

<v Kurt>is one, just make sure that you have some passion around it.

<v Kurt>If this is a project management, if it's around law,

<v Kurt>if it's around whatever it is, just

<v Kurt>make sure you have passion around it

<v Kurt>And you're not trying to do it because, oh, if I do this,

<v Kurt>I will get more sales or I'll be perceived as an expert.

<v Kurt>You need to really have that curiosity and that idea,

<v Kurt>particularly if it's going to be an interview style one where

<v Kurt>you're talking with people.

<v Kurt>And then just give it time.

<v Kurt>Again, I think the biggest– and you probably

<v Kurt>have better stats on this– but the amount of people who start

<v Kurt>and then don't continue.

<v Kurt>Part of it is you realize, oh, this

<v Kurt>isn't as easy as just recording an hour-long thing,

<v Kurt>And then it's gone.

<v Kurt>No, it's a lot more goes into it than that.

<v Kurt>But it's that long term.

<v Kurt>And you start to build up and keep those–

<v Kurt>open up the channels to your listeners

<v Kurt>and have those conversations.

<v Kurt>Because some of those conversations,

<v Kurt>we have had people over the years

<v Kurt>where we're continuing different conversations.

<v Kurt>And eventually, sometimes that leads into, hey,

<v Kurt>I have this–

<v Kurt>I was talking to a friend and they have this, this issue and all of a sudden you can get

<v Kurt>some business from it.

<v Kurt>If that is indeed what you're trying to do, that would be my, my recommendations.

<v Kurt>Yeah, I think that's great advice.

<v Craig>Cool place to wrap it up for me, Kurt Nelson of behavioral grooves.

<v Kurt>Where can folks check out kind of more about you and the podcast behavioral grooves.com

<v Kurt>behavioral grooves.com.

<v Kurt>We are on Twitter at behavioral groove without the E or the S they had to truncate that.

<v Kurt>So we're out there as well.

<v Kurt>Yeah.

<v Kurt>And any of the traditional podcasts, places where you listen, it just, you know, we're

<v Kurt>up there.

<v Kurt>So awesome.

<v Kurt>Thanks so much.

<v Kurt>I appreciate it.

<v Kurt>Thank you, Greg.

<v Kurt>Appreciate it.

<v Kurt>Thanks so much for tuning in to another episode of the limelight.

<v Craig>If you're enjoying this show, check out our other podcasts we have in the Castos Originals

<v Craig>Network at castos.com/podcasts.

<v Craig>We'll see you next week.